Monday, August 21, 2006
Wanna see prophecy in action? Here's a taste (located at www.timsuttle.blogspot.com in the McLaren Interview thread...buried deep in one of my comments back around June 2006):
"if you seriously doubt the doctrine of the Creed at the end (referring to Tim's shall we say, discomfort with the doctrine of eternal punishment), what’s to stop you from doubting the doctrines at its beginning? And there’s already a number of “Christian” denominations that are well-established that we could wander off to today. The aforementioned Unitarian Universalists are one, Unity School of “Christianity,” is another, Christian Science, etc are others. This is not to mention the myriad established world religions like Buddhism and Baha’ism that would be sufficient for this."
Yes, sad to say, Satellite Soul's Capt. Kirk has set course for the Neutral Zone. Take a peek at today's posts and see lathering lapdogs at the helm handing over control to the Romulans! Hell was the first indignation to go the way of the dodo in Tim's "theology." Now, like the prophet foretold, he's on to more substantial things, like the "false doctrine" of the Atonement:
Atonement is a hot issue in Christianity right now. There are a lot of
people weighing in on this issue in theology. It’s really important to study and
talk about these things. We need to hear everyone’s voice on this. However, in
my humble opinion, what we don’t need are people who are just absolutely
convinced their way of seeing it is the only right way. It’s such a complicated
issue, it’s really not as cut and dried as Hybels tried to make it seem. We need
to listen more and try to entertain other points of view. Now more than ever we
need a well rounded view of the atonement. One which deals with the shedding of
scales from our eyes which has occurred through new philosophies and cultural
shifts and which deals with the sacred texts of the bible without running home
to Anselm at every mention of the cross.
Yes, your humble 'Pastor' Tim has seen fit to chuck the vicarious death of Christ on the cross for your sins and mine. Hell? Fuggedaboutit! The cross! Too pointy! Let's sand those splinters smooth, Jesus. We'll get kinder, gentler nails, and you can just hold 'em between your feet and in yer hands.
I gotta tell ya, Tim...the "hot issue" ain't the vicarious atonement of Christ on the cross for your sins and mine. It may be "hot" with you and your can't-really-be-sure-of-any doctrine-except-one (the tithe!). Glad I didn't let the door hit me on the way out. Make sure you keep your job secure by ensuring that every foundational doctrine of the historic church is officially declared too difficult and complicated for the 'common people' (Matt 11:25 & Luke 10:21), then run it thru with your diploma-mill MAP certificate and plenty of citation from postmodern "philosophies" (Col 2:8).
I'm not at all certain what Tim's reference to Anselm is in his chucking of the atonement, since the doctrine is of "first importance" according to St. Paul:
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, (1Cor 15:3a)
The not-so-pastoral Tim sez: "what we don’t need are people who are just absolutely convinced their way of seeing it is the only right way."
(now, I'm guessing from Tim's tone here, that he's 'absolutely convinced' his way of looking at this is 'the only right way.")
Now compare that to this:
2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins,
(note: he says "the" not "a" propitiation)
(NLT, the fave version of Kevin & Co, renders "propitiation" as "sacrifice." The Message puts it this way: "2 When he served as a sacrifice for our sins, he solved the sin problem for good")
You can see there's a 'great gulf fixed betwixt' what Paul says, and what TS says. I'll take St. Paul any day over the thin gruel on Tim's menu.
And, as for assurance, which is what being "absolutely convinced" is, at its essence, here's what John says:
9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son[b] into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, >>>>we also ought to love one another.
13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.
A church that receives the kind of steady diet that is being served up by K10, and Tim in particular, will be starved of that confidence, and in turn, of that motivation for loving one another. The abrogation of the doctrine of God's atoning sacrifice in Jesus' death on the cross for us is abject heresy which will breed not just more heresy, as if that weren't bad enough, but will engender not humility, but timidity, lack of prayer, and lack of assurance, which naturally would leave no reason to worship such a god; a lack of worship at such a "church" even in song, let alone in works is nearly inevitable. It'll turn into what it's already becoming: a church that preaches a treacly gospel of social clubs and social work, born out of guilt and manipulation instead of an expression of true worship for a Savior who really took our punishment for us to make us His possession for all eternity. In other words, it'll become a "mainline church."
"The changes in those lives weren't related to the idea of Substitionary atonement, but more, I would speculate, out of being a part of a loving and accepting community of people who have experience God in a real and powerful way, something that Bill didn't seem to mention was an important part of the message of Christianity."
Ok, so it's the "fun" and the propping up of your "self-esteem" by being in a "loving/accepting" social community of people that CHANGES LIVES? Not Jesus dying on the cross for them! Oh, no. Gosh, in their arrogance about how well K10 does its "programming," they can point fingers and pat themselves on the back about how well they mix "art" and the message. But I say, What Message!?